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Name: margalit
Location: Massachusetts, United States Professional writer, educational advocate, opinionated ultra liberal mother of 18 year old twins, living life in the slow lane due to hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, congestive heart failure, and diabetes.

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Sunday, December 07, 2008

Let me get something straight here

On Twitter this afternoon I mentioned in response to a twit (not the person, the message) that I felt it was insensitive and rude for someone to send a Christmas card to someone you KNOW isn't Christian. The key word here is KNOW. Like, if you sent me a Christmas card, it would be insensitive and rude because guess what? NOT CHRISTIAN. As in, I'm pretty clear that I don't celebrate Christmas. I don't want a Christmas card.

That means a CHRISTMAS card. It does not mean a Happy Holiday card. Or a Season's Greetings card. As long as the card isn't religious or particularly Christmassy, I don't have an issue with it. Now, I'm not speaking for all Jews here, but I can tell you that most of my Jewish friends feel exactly the same way I do about this topic.

It's important (at least to me) that you understand that this isn't about YOU. I have no problem whatsover with you sending holiday cards. Most Jewish families send out Rosh Hashona cards. We get the holiday thing. We're cool with holiday cards. But we're cool with our holidays, not particularly with other people's holidays. You see, we LIKE being Jewish. And part of being Jewish is not celebrating other people's religions. Yup, it's true. Now I know that some folks who are secular or Reform Jews, or who really don't know much about the religion are gonna get all huffy here and talk about how that's not true of them and their families. Which is fine. But I'm not secular or Reform or unknowledgable about my religion. I know that Judaism is very clear about not taking part in other religious observances. Orthodox and traditional Jews don't enter churches for the same reason. Again, not about you. It's about Jews and how we practice our religion. I know that it isn't what you thought you knew about Judaism. But the fact of the matter is, somewhere in the Midrash it is pretty clearly spelled out that Jews aren't supposed to be celebrating other religious holidays.

Again, not speaking for all Jews. If you're Jewish and this isn't your practice, fine. But it IS the norm for traditional Jews and I honestly do not want to be told that we're wrong, we're insensitive, Christmas is a secular American holiday, blah blah blah. Really, don't want to hear it. It's my practice, it's my belief, and it's my religious practice.

I want to reiterate that this is not about you. When you give a gift, do you pick out what you want? Or do you pick out what you believe the recipient wants? It's the same thing. Some Jewish recipients do not want Christmas cards. It's really easy to understand. If your Jewish friend is observant, you can bet that they might be offended by such a lapse of sensitivity on your part like sending them a Christmas card. OK?

And furthermore, it's not about YOU. I don't care what you do in your home. I do care what you send to my home. I hope that makes it clear.

For the asshole that called me arrogant and rude for stating my belief, here's a hearty Fuck You. Honestly, I don't need you or anyone else telling me how to observe my religion in MY HOME. Get it? But thanks for the hits. Every moron that thinks you're funny is more money in my pocket! Happy Holidays, indeed.

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37 Comments:

OpenID karma_musings said...

I'm totally in your court, Margalit - and? "When you give a gift, do you pick out what you want?" - yes, IF you're 4 years old :-)

7/12/08 10:21 PM  
Blogger sarah cool said...

good points.

loved this:
"because guess what? NOT CHRISTIAN."

7/12/08 10:47 PM  
Blogger Suzy said...

I totally get - and accept what you are saying about the cards. And that Twitterer(?) was a jackass.

I did want to ask a question about not going to churches, if I may - if a friend of yours, a Christian, gets married in a church, could you not attend the service?

Suzy

7/12/08 11:37 PM  
Blogger bethany actually said...

Who gets annoyed about things like this? I just don't get that. I have several relatives and friends who are observant Jews, and guess what? When I sent them a card in December, I do not wish them a Merry Christmas. I wish them a Happy New Year and, if it's timely, a Happy Hanukkah. I want the mail I send people to make them happy, not annoy them!

8/12/08 1:15 AM  
Blogger margalit said...

Suzy, A friend of mine with a similar level of observance as mine was talking to me about this issue tonight. We have both attended weddings in Churches, and I've attended one Christening. So yes, we do VERY occasionally go into a church for a ceremony. But never for an ecumenical service or to see how the other 3/4 of the country worships. We just don't do that.

I have friends who would not set foot in a church, no matter what. Me, I will go into a church to see the architecture (Notre Dame, Westminster Abbey, St Albans Cathedral, St Peters) but if there is a service going on, I won't go in. I think (for me) it's silly to miss seeing a historic building. But I KNOW that other Jewish people absolutely WILL NOT go inside for any reason, even curiosity.

8/12/08 1:31 AM  
Blogger margalit said...

Thanks for your support, everyone. Now why don't you head on over to this asshole's site and let him know what a complete and utter MORON he is, and while you're at it, check out his delightful and totally NON-Humorous banner.

http://www.avitable.com/2008/12/08/christmas-and-political-correctness/

8/12/08 1:34 AM  
Blogger margalit said...

Christi, perhaps you're not bright enough to note that the OTHER person was the one that called me a Twat, a word I don't use, abhor, and think is about as low class as one can get. Why am I not surprised? The same person that thinks it's funny to sit with Hitler in a car? What a laugh riot he is.

Tell you what. Stay over there with him and go ahead and be as insensitive and obnoxious as he is. But if you come here, I DO expect you to behave the way I've set up the rules. Apparently your buddy isn't smart enough to set up his own house rules, so he gets just what he deserves.

OTOH, this is MY blog, just like it's MY house, and I get to make the rules on my blog. Not on other people's blogs, on MINE. You don't like it? Adios. Just like I said to your moronic friend before I got rid of him on Twitter.

Any further comments from you will be deleted unless you can be polite. Respect. It's something you MIGHT want to try and learn.

8/12/08 2:25 AM  
Blogger Christi said...

Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas to you!

8/12/08 2:30 AM  
Blogger Robin said...

I'm going to ignore Christi because if I didn't I'd be forced to break the house rules ;-).

As for the cards, I'm a lot more accepting if it's someone who didn't grow up around others of a different religion and genuinely didn't think about how this might not be my holiday than I am of someone who feels that I don't have the right to say "no thank you, this isn't for me". But how much better does it feel to know that the sender sees *me* as a person and not just another anonymous name on a long list of obligatory recipients and took the 10 seconds necessary to write "I know you don't celebrate Christmas but these are the cards I have, so please accept my Happy Hannukah/Kwanzaa/whatever wishes instead. Whatever you're celebrating this season, I just wanted you to know that I was thinking about you."

We don't have to look for insult where none was intended, but at the same time there's nothing wrong with expecting those who care enough to send a card to value us for who we ARE, not for who they feel everyone should be.

8/12/08 3:26 AM  
Blogger lestlie said...

I don't understand how you can demand respect and politeness from your readers when you don't seem to be able to show any for other people yourself. Have you not heard of being the bigger man?

Furthermore, I'm a faithful Buddhist, but I don't get upset when people wish me "Merry Christmas" because, to me, it's become something more than a Christian Holiday. And because I am not one to judge the motives of others, I am not easily upset by things such as Christmas cards. I have a Christmas tree, for crying out loud.

We get it. You're not Christian, and that's great! Why don't you come out of your protective, fascist blog-comment shell and realize that being overly-sensitive to stupid issues just makes you an angry, sad, pathetic person.

8/12/08 8:10 AM  
Blogger Narrator said...

You're completely over-sensitive. Get over yourself.

8/12/08 8:19 AM  
Blogger Miss Britt said...

I was actually thinking about this this morning, since it was MY twitter about the "Christmas cards" I was sending that started this whole shit storm.

My thought was this -

If Faiqa (a muslim friend of mine) invited me to participate in her Eid celebrations, or included me in that in ANY way - I'd be fucking HONORED. I can't imagine a scenario where that would OFFEND me.

To me it's not saying "here, let me shove my ideas down your throat", it's saying "this is something that's important to me and I'd like to include you in it to let you know that I care about you. We don't practice the same religion, but this is a time of year where people in MY religion stop and wish those closest to us well. I'd like to extend that sentiment to you."

I think if you choose to look for "arrogance" and "insensitivity" in a gesture that was intended for nothing but goodwill -

well, that probably says more about you than it does about me.

8/12/08 8:32 AM  
Blogger Sue said...

You know, I understand what you're saying. However, sending somebody a card is not forcing you to celebrate Christmas or accept Jesus as your savior.

These cards are not worded in that way, they are simply meant to wish you well. Even if they know you are non-Christian, people certainly don't expect you to be offended by a kind gesture. They just have no way of knowing that you will take it so personally.

If you don't wish to get those things, let people know. People don't go around sending well wishes to upset you, they are presuming you will appreciate the sentiment behind it.

The real question is why are you letting it bother you so much when you can just throw it in the trash and get on with your life? Why get to the point of anger and name calling and cussing? Why waste your energy on that? Is it worth getting yourself riled up about it? Or is worth the time it takes to send the card back saying "No thank you, but I don't celebrate Christmas."

And, yeah, I know he called you a twat, but was it necessary to fire back an 'F--- You'? What did you accomplish there? I think you are making this out to be more than what it has to be by fueling the fire. You are actually feeding into your own anger, and unfortunately that's only hurting YOU. Good luck with that.

8/12/08 9:04 AM  
Blogger the sassy kathy said...

hello! just wanted to say thanks for your comment re. venice - so interesting! and yes, they must be used to it now i suppose, though i still have trouble even fathoming how you get used to five feet of water. good for them for remaining positive despite the flood waters :)

on another note - ironic that i found you just now because i was literally JUST saying how much i think i would like boston (though i've never been), and how perhaps it would satisfy my desire for city life without the insanity of a huge city etc. and look, you live in boston! :)

8/12/08 9:54 AM  
Blogger Rhea said...

I am Jewish and grew up in a very Christian town. I am really accustomed to received Xmas cards and being pretty OK about it. But one person told me last year that Christmas decorations are so prevalent that they just stand for the 'winter holidays' I OBJECTED!! Wreathes, anything red and green, Santa, and other Xmas decor is not JEWISH. Sorry.

8/12/08 10:14 AM  
Blogger shiny said...

I've written and deleted my comment here several times already, but hopefully this one will stick. :)

First and foremost: I agree 100% with this statement: Some Jewish recipients do not want Christmas cards. It's really easy to understand. If your Jewish friend is observant, you can bet that they might be offended by such a lapse of sensitivity on your part like sending them a Christmas card. OK? The important modifiers here are "some" and "might." I can certainly see how, in some situations, a Christmas card being sent to someone who outwardly identifies as a traditionally Jewish can be offensive. I've been in that situation, in fact -- where the appearance of a Christmas card in the mail was part of a pattern of overt insensitivity from a person who made it abundantly clear that my Jewish beliefs and practices were incorrect.

On the other hand -- as an former Hillel professional who has worked on college campuses ranging where the Jewish population has been both large and minuscule, I take a different approach to the issue. I've learned that Christmas really does mean different things to different people. For some, Christmas cards are simply an innocuous seasonal tradition: just as I bring in matzah to work on Passover and offer my non-Jewish colleagues to partake if they so wish -- without them feeling that it belittles them for not observing Passover -- the Christmas card may be, for them, the way that they observe Christmas. They get together for the sake of the holiday to observe their traditions, and the card is their way of making the occasion to family and friends.

It was actually quite funny when I was working at the Hillel at UNC about a decade ago to see the numerous Christmas cards we would get from the other "Campus Ministries" in Chapel Hill. (We were a part of the Campus Ministry organization.) We didn't take it as an affront. We smiled a bit -- we didn't see it as them encroaching on our beliefs; instead we saw it as them expressing theirs.

You mentioned the issue with traditional Jews not entering other places of worship - sometimes as a blanket rule and sometimes for religious observances. I have a lot of brushing up to do on my Talmud, but I'm fairly certain that one of the reasons has to do with Ma'arat Ayin, which, for those of you unfamiliar, is the Jewish version of "This isn't how it looks." It stems from tradition that if a Torah observant Jew were to enter a church for a meeting, to use the bathroom, etc. -- others might assume that his action might be to worship there, and that since he's doing it and he's seen as pious, it's okay for anyone to come in and worship there. (It sounds a bit silly when simplified like this.) But I don't see the receipt of a Christmas card to fall into the same category as celebrating that holiday.

What would be ideal? I suppose (depending on when it falls in the calendar) writing in "Happy Chanukah." Or even "Happy New Year" or "Season's Greetings." (Hey -- I'm all for making Asarah b'Tevet the reason for the season!) Something which may acknowledge that we might not celebrate the same holidays but that we're in the thoughts of those who do.

I apologize for the length of the comment. But it's a good discussion -- one which I may even continue over at my blog as well. :) Thanks for posting it.

8/12/08 10:49 AM  
Blogger Bluepaintred said...

"To me it's not saying "here, let me shove my ideas down your throat", it's saying "this is something that's important to me and I'd like to include you in it to let you know that I care about you."

Ohhh, point for Britt.

8/12/08 11:10 AM  
Blogger sybil law said...

I generally send out holiday cards that say, "Happy Holidays" and leave it at that, because though I understand what you're trying to say, I really don't understand the offense. I would not be offended if anyone sent me a "Happy Hannukah" card or any other holiday greeting. I see it as a gesture of friendship, kindness and good will. I certainly don't think they would expect me to start practicing their religion. That's the beauty of having friends of all different religions and races, in my opinion.

8/12/08 12:14 PM  
Blogger Crys said...

i couldn't have said it any better than Britt did. bravo.

8/12/08 12:15 PM  
Blogger NotAMeanGirl said...

margait-

First, while I agree with the sentiment that it is insensitive to give Christmas Cards to non Christians, sometimes a card is just a card. It's intent is rarely if EVER malicious or cruel or even thoughtless. People want to include others they care about. Especially when it's an event that makes them happy.

Perhaps rather than telling others to shape up, thanking them for wanting to include you in the good in their life would be a better course. Then you could simply add "I'm not Christian, I don't celebrate Christmas, but Thank you for wanting to include me in your celebration and happiness." It makes your point and acknowledges that what they are doing was done out of good intentions.

Just a thought.

8/12/08 12:25 PM  
Blogger Sheila said...

I'm only trying to figure out why, if you were so offended by Avitable's header, you were following him on Twitter? Unless, of course, you only randomly follow people in hopes of them following you back, without ever actually reading his blog.

8/12/08 12:28 PM  
Blogger MaRnEy said...

Peace and love to you. I think you need some.

8/12/08 12:28 PM  
Blogger margalit said...

Miss Brit and those that agree with her:

I put in BIG RED LETTERS that it isn't about YOU, it's about me. In other words, how you feel about the issue isn't the issue at all. It's how I feel when I get something that makes me uncomfortable. I guess that you all have a problem with stepping outside yourself and putting yourself into someone else's place. Because honestly, what YOU do and how YOU feel isn't my business and I really don't care about it.

But again, MY house, MY mailbox, MY observances... and my feelings. Not yours.

WHY is this so hard for you all to understand?

I'm happy that you would feel honored. Good for you. You're in a majority religion where you're feeling it's OK to be ecumenical.

I'm not. I'm in a minority religion that has been a victim of vicious hatred by Christians since the beginning of Christianity. Perhaps that MIGHT have something to do with how I feel as a Jewish person in a country that DOES NOT GET that Christmas is NOT secular, is not an American holiday, and it will NEVER be anything but a Christian holiday forever and ever amen. No matter what you say.

And Miss Britt et al, I'd like to know WITHOUT using Google, how many Jews you think live in this country. Give me a percentage. Is it 12%, 15%, 26%? Name a number without going to google or any other search engine. Please. Because I'm guessing that most of you have no clue at all

8/12/08 12:31 PM  
Blogger Miss Britt said...

Well. Technically...

It was about ME. And MY cards. That I was sending to MY friends.

And that was what YOU deemed "arrogant and insensitive".

But whatever. Rest assured, I will not be sending you a card of any kind. Promise.

8/12/08 12:34 PM  
Blogger Sue said...

If I were to put myself in your shoes, I think I would be very miserable taking offense to every little thing and getting all bent out of shape over a simple card.

Is that how you want to live? Getting upset over something so insignificant in the grand scheme of things? Well, good luck with that.

8/12/08 12:50 PM  
Blogger Immoral Matriarch said...

I agree with Britt as well - I think she made some valid points. (And I'm Atheist so the whole majority thing doesn't apply to me.)

8/12/08 12:54 PM  
Blogger BSumner said...

As one of my fabulous Jewish friends (whom I almost Married!) said when someone repeatedly wished him Merry Christmas.. "Opps...Did i forget to put on my 'I'm a big fat hairy jew' hat on?"

He's never offended when someone wishes him well on the holiday.. but when they do it repeatedly and then get mad when he doesn't do the same for them, he gets irritated. LOL

I totally get where you're coming from. Equally annoying is when someone you don't know walks up to your kids in a store and asks them "WHO's gonna come visit you and bring you presents sooon????????"
My 3 year old actually responded.. "Gramma?" ROFL.

8/12/08 1:05 PM  
Blogger margalit said...

I find it interesting that the people from that asshat's site who drifted over here have the need to not only NOT try and understand, but to tell me how wrong I am. But MY readers get it. Hmmm, how awesome is that? Because it just proves my point that what I want and what I care about is of no interest to you foreigners here. You really just came to tell me that I'm a jerk. Fine... you made your point. You don't even want to BOTHER to read what I said and why. Because YOU don't agree, and YOU feel differently and YOU are right and YOU know everything and YOU are the expert on how Jews are supposed to feel and YOU know more than the Jews anyhow because YOU are athiest/agnostic/pagen/buddhist/christian/secular/fairygodmother.

But guess what. You all who claim to be buddhist and athiest and agnostic and pagen all were brought up in a CHRISTIAN family, even if your family didn't observe. You are NOT and will never speak for OBSERVANT Jews. Your blatent disrespect for what Jews think and feel and believe is astounding. I bet you all think of yourselves as being one with diversity and liberal and not a racist or even exclusionary.

But guess what? YOU refuse to listen, YOU refuse to acknowledge a viewpoint different than your own, YOU come to my blog to insult me and my beliefs and my feelings and you do so knowing that you're rude, arrogant, insulting and dismissive. Yes, YOU.

And for those of you who feel that I have nothing to do all day but complain, um.... I'm guessing you don't spend much time reading my blog. Because my complaints are a small part of my life, and the rest of my life includes my family, my friends, people in crisis, politics, food, and a bunch of other stuff.

I don't sit here and think of ways to make trouble and stir the pot. It's MY blog and I get to express MY feelings on MY blog. You don't like to read them? Go away. You won't be missed.

But honestly, look in the mirror people. You're saying that a person that practices a religion different than yours (or your lack of one) is WRONG. Where I come from, that's basic intolerance. And if you accuse ME of being intolerant, you didn't read my post, where I said over and over again that what YOU do in your home is great for YOU. But what I do in MY home does not get to be dictated by you. Period, end of report.

Bye bye. Don't let the door hit you on the way out!

8/12/08 1:05 PM  
Blogger Janelle said...

Sheila made a very valid point.

You seem to hold your faith very close to your heart, by reading this post and this post alone. And that is a good thing about how personal you take your faith. I take mine very personal as well which is why I happily say, "Merry Christmas"

With that said, when I follow someone on twitter I usually want to know at least what their blog looks like, make sure it isn't some SPAM crap. I do find it odd that you can take great offense to Miss Britt sending out a Christmas card to one of her non- Christian good friends who will probably in return mail Miss Britt a card demonstrating her religion as well. Yet, you were following Adam on twitter when clearly his header on his blog would be highly offensive to me if I were in your shoes - seeing as how you would be offend by a Christmas Card.

Does that make sense?

If I were a hard core practicing Jew, no way would I follow Adam on twitter or anywhere else because of his header on his blog.

Why was it ok for you to follow Adam and be ok with that and not with Miss Britt mailing out a Christmas Card to a non- Christian?

I don't mean this to come across mean or spiteful, but enquiring minds want to know.

8/12/08 1:11 PM  
Blogger margalit said...

Janelle, you pose a valid question. I opened my twitter account well over a year ago, but for the past 7 or 8 months I didn't use it at all. I just came back to twitter about a week ago. During that time Adam followed me. I have never looked at his blog until yesterday and I un-followed him immediately after I saw it. I've seen his comments on other blogs and they have been mildly offensive but nothing like that banner. He butted into a twitter convo between Ms Britt and me. I was kinda shocked by what he said. Like, who the heck is this guy, went to see his blog, and boom! He was gone. Believe me, I won't be dealing with him again. He appears to have some sort of a weird following, and I'll be dealing with those folks, too, as they come up.

As for Ms Britt, I read her blog for a while, and then stopped. It was around the hurricane that I found her. I know what people either love her or hate her. I honestly have no opinion either way. I can have a spirited discussion where I express my opinions just fine as long as the party is respectful. While I TOTALLY disagree with Miss Britt on this topic, she's been nothing but polite. Can't say that for Adam, who from the first time I ever had discourse with him, was insulting me. Nice guy!

I hope this answers your question.

8/12/08 1:26 PM  
Blogger Avitable said...

Margalit,

Your severe lack of reading comprehension astounds me. Nobody has said that you don't have the right to practice whatever religion you choose.

My whole point - one that you have yet to try to argue or refute in any way - is that it's overly sensitive, unreasonable, and just plain fucking retarded to be offended by someone wishing you well.

Whether they're saying "Merry Christmas", "Happy Chanukah", or "Happy Kwanzaa", their goal is to wish you well. What rationale can you POSSIBLY have for being offended by someone doing so?

I eagerly await your poorly spelled, frantically written, harried response. If this comment doesn't get deleted, that is.

8/12/08 1:34 PM  
Blogger Sue said...

You shouldn't let other people's opinions cause you so much anxiety.

8/12/08 2:12 PM  
Blogger Lexi said...

Look, I get your point. Your religion is important to you. I think we can all respect that.

However, I think you're getting up-in-arms over basically nothing. Throw the card in the trash and move on with your life.

8/12/08 2:15 PM  
Blogger New York City's Watchdog said...

Margalit,

I understand where you are coming from. I understand where you make it clear that this post is about you and how you feel on the matter.

Therein lies the problem. Someone sending you a card or wishing you happiness is not all about you. It is about them too. It is about their thoughtfulness and their wishes of happiness for you.

I'm in a minority religion that has been a victim of vicious hatred by Christians since the beginning of Christianity.

Could that "vicious hatred" have anything to do with the way that the early Christians were persecuted thoroughly based on the selfish inability to understand and respect where THEY were coming from?

From your post, it looks like that attitude hasn't changed. It's sad that you have made this an issue about religion, because it really has nothing to do with religion at all.

It is a matter of perspective. I imagine that a Palestinian blogger might write something like this:

I'm in a minority religion that has been a victim of vicious hatred by Jews since the beginning of Judaism.

Still, it isn't about someone else's perspective, it is about you as you have repeatedly (and in red) made clear. What does amaze me is your 5 or so readers who have supported you here because they obviously care about you and your perspective. Even when you are unwilling to do so yourself...

Because honestly, what YOU do and how YOU feel isn't my business and I really don't care about it.

In conclusion, you cannot expect others to respect or care about your opinion or feelings when you are unable to do so for others.

8/12/08 3:33 PM  
Blogger Zom said...

Merry Christmas! you miserable, selfish hag. I hope your menorah tips over and burns down the pedestal you've put yourself on. It's all about YOU YOU YOU. How dare you deny someone the pleasure of wishing you well, no matter how it's worded. So here's a big, hearty "FUCK YOU TOO".
Have a nice day! (I didn't know how to say that in Hebrew, so I hope that works)

8/12/08 10:11 PM  
Blogger Jester said...

I'm an atheist who pretty much considers the following of any religion at all a symptom of mental defect.

I doubt that every person on the planet that might have my address on their "Holiday" list knows my particular religious leanings.

That being said, when I receive a $2 reminder of the rest of the world's inability to develop their own reason and moral code in the mail, I recycle it and think "How nice of my insurance agent to think of me for the holiday."

But then again, I'm not a self-righteous hyper-sensitive harpy who needs the rest of the world to acknowledge her oh-so-oppressed minority status instead of sending a retaliatory box of stale matzoh balls to the insensitive bitch who dared wish me a Merry Christmas.

9/12/08 12:51 AM  
Blogger margalit said...

Zom, Jester, NYCWatchdog: What can I say. I like that you didn't even bother to read what I posted and commented... that you think this is about someone wishing me a Merry Christmas, and that you can namecall and be completely unpleasant and repulsive jerks and be proud of that. I guess you think that this is going to somehow make me think that I'm the idiot and you guys are all so great with your dinky little peni and your big giant egos. Guess what? I don't give a shit what you have to say.

But I left your comments up so people could see first hand just what kind of white trash is attracted to that other Hitler loving site. You guys sure do represent well. I'm impressed. I didn't realize that there were this many sad, stupid, and pathetic men on the net. And they can all be found in the same place! Go figure....

Comments are now closed. You can blame yourselves for that. Instead of having a reasonable discussion, your inability to reason beyond preschool and your rudeness isn't the kind of behavior I'll tolerate. So you can take pride that you spoiled the discussion for people who did want it to continue. Buh Bye. You'all don't come back now, hear?

9/12/08 2:30 AM  

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